After reading many reactions from the FP

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone) 02/20/2014 at 15:33 • Filed to: None

0

45

On the Toyobaru article, and some of the FR-S sedan is stupid, blah blah , on my own !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . I ask you this.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

And this. Imagine that you are Akio Toyoda, you have on your desk a sheet of paper with sales results for the Toyobaru. You want to sell more.

What do you do? Without adding a million horsepower engine and selling the car for $10.000 .

CalzoneGolem > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:35

3

Now make a wagon.

Brian, The Life of > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:37

3

"On second thought, let's not go to the FP. 'Tis a silly place."

Casper > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:37

2

The problem is that they are trying to make what everyone wants. They need to just say this car is made for x tiny demographic and the rest of you can go die in a fire like they did with the Supra and MR2. Trying to stretch it to make the sports car purists, high horsepower tiny penis compensators, and soccer moms all happy will result in yet another beige garbage barge that breaks down a lot and can't use a fraction of it's own power.

If Mazda had done this with the Miata, it would have gone down in history very differently.

JustWaitingForAMate > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 15:38

0

Only available in brown, and diesel.

Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 15:40

0

I'm not a wagon fan as much as the rest of Oppo, but God yes. This needs to be done!

RacecaR > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:42

0

You want to sale more.

*sell
or maybe sail. Maybe he likes the sea, and misses it while he is sitting at his desk looking at boring sales figures.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:43

0

Simple - kill off Scion. What good are they anymore? Since the recession, Scion's only real growth has come from the FR-S and perhaps the iQ? Maybe some of the new tC? But at 70k sales being the high point since 2008, I don't know how much longer you can justify that brand. Keep in mind - that ~70k sales figure is split between 5 models. And last year, 20k beonged to the FR-S. Scion hit ~70k in both 2012 and 2013 but the FR-S only started in 2013. So Scion would've sold about 50k were it not for the FR-S. THe average sales figure for their models is ~12.5k without the FR-S and is ~14k with it factored in. GM killed off brands for sales like that and I think Toyota could do the same and walk away without harm. The FR-S is already the "GT 86" elsewhere in the world. Why not put it in the toyota dealership where buyers might have some money? It isn't a fuel thirsty, high price tag supra that would likely scare away potential prius owners. I can easily see a younger toyota buyer buying the FR-S over a camry or corolla and toyota could make a loyalist out of them.

And don't say "Oh well the FR-S will cannibalize sales of other toyotas" because I can guarantee the tC and FR-S are costing some sales figures for Scion right now. Not among enthusiasts but among people who are looking for a sportier car than a corolla.

hethoughtofcars > Casper 02/20/2014 at 15:43

1

....but the Supra and MR2 are no longer around...

HammerheadFistpunch > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/20/2014 at 15:45

0

You know...this is right. Just make it a Toyota. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the car, but the branding. Toyota is killing off the FJ cruiser that is selling nearly as well as the entire brand.

CalzoneGolem > JustWaitingForAMate 02/20/2014 at 15:46

0

I don't like the way diesel sounds or smells.

SaabLife, because Gripen > JustWaitingForAMate 02/20/2014 at 15:46

0

But only available in some vague and obscure European market for like two years.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 15:46

0

I'm 100% positive that would ensure its death. All the enthusiasts who *would* buy the FR-S pretty much already have it. Making an even more "jalop" version will make sure the sales figure goes lower while development and tooling costs go higher.

CalzoneGolem > Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? 02/20/2014 at 15:46

0

Or atleast a hatch.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:46

1

If they want to sell more just give it a turbo. The aftermarket has proved how good that can be. Follow them :)

CalzoneGolem > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/20/2014 at 15:47

0

I'd buy a wagon or hatch. I can't dd a two door.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 15:49

0

But would you really buy THIS wagon/hatch/sedan? At 30k+? With 200hp and no torque? And a curb weight that will probably go over 3000 lbs? Really? Honestly? Because I don't think you, or anyone else of sane mind, would. And so toyota won't do it.

jariten1781 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 15:50

0

The steady state market for these cars is going to be small always. They're not going to get any appreciable volume by making a TRD or STI version. The only hope for long term production is to settle in for the long term with upgrades every 4 or 5 model years with maybe a performance edition in the last model year. If they invest a lot in a higher performing edition and don't get a massive sales bump (hint: they won't) then the bean counters will bail on the model.

The only other thing they could do would be to expand use of the platform...but that's difficult to do without impinging on the FWD platforms that are going to be their bread and butter anyway.

CalzoneGolem > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/20/2014 at 15:52

0

I'd buy it used much like I buy every car. A rwd hatch? Fuck yeah!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 15:55

0

So basically I'm right, you wouldn't buy it.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 02/20/2014 at 15:56

0

To get aftermarket parts for the 86, you would need an 86 first, not sure that's a solution.

Decay buys too many beaters > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 02/20/2014 at 15:59

1

Exactly, once they release their STI version with 300bhp for $36k everyone will be like "fuck that I can turbo/supercharge it myself and get 300hp TO THE WHEELS for less than $36K!"

I think they would be wise to just let the aftermarket have this one.

CalzoneGolem > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/20/2014 at 15:59

0

Well, I don't really like you so I don't really want to admit it.

So basically yes, I would buy it.

Cixelsyd > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 16:07

0

Not sure about Toyota, but Subaru doesn't need to do much of anything. The development is done. Just drop the base WRX engine in and call it the BRZ STi. DONE. Next to zero additional development costs and the increase in price is all profit.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 16:08

0

But if everyone wants to buy it used, then no one will buy it new. Toyota needs people to buy it new to justify making it. Saying "I'll buy it used" confirms their choice to not make it.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > jariten1781 02/20/2014 at 16:16

0

Nissan is somehow able to keep the Z around despite less than 10k sales a year in America. But then again this was accomplished by changing very little and letting the car get outclassed by rivals. Still, I think it might be at 75k total sales by now in America alone.

I still say branding the car as a scion is doing them no favors. At least the 370Z sits next to the sentra and altima - cars that actually move off the dealership lots. Scion's sales are pretty poor lately. If nothing else, having a few on the lot near the camry and tacoma and sienna would at LEAST get people with a decent budget looking at it. I said in another comment that the tC cuts into its sales to some degree. Meanwhile, the FR-S might steer someone away from a focus ST or a miata when they were also shopping the mazda 3, normal Focus, and the corolla or what have you. Toyota has no hot hatch. They have no roadster. THey have nothing for anyone who wants something exciting. Ford, Mazda, VW, and even nissan are able to pull off having some sportiness in the plebian line up. If the NISMO juke sells, then I'd say toyota has no reason to keep the FR-S as a scion.

anonsagainstanonymous > CalzoneGolem 02/20/2014 at 16:18

0

And a pickup truck. And a delivery van version of the wagon. Also a camper version.

CalzoneGolem > anonsagainstanonymous 02/20/2014 at 16:23

0

Now we're talking!

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Decay buys too many beaters 02/20/2014 at 16:36

0

I'm not so sure about that. A decent number of people wouldn't consider the aftermarket at all, and many others would simply prefer a factory-developed car. Especially as it would most likely come with a full factory warranty.

If that wasn't the case, why would automakers ever make a performance version of a 'normal' car. You can get an Alpina instead of an M car, or a Brabus instead of an AMG.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 16:39

0

You misunderstand me. I mean that Subaru/Toyota should do what the aftermarket guys are doing and release their own turbocharged version.

It seems like a bit of an oversight that they haven't already. Unless they're being just as clever with it as they were with the hype-buildup they created before the first release. Wait until the people who wanted to buy the standard '86 have started to dry up and then wham, high-powered turbo version :)

Jayhawk Jake > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 16:39

0

If I was Akido Toyoda, I would hope I was smart enough to realize the GT-86 would never be a high volume seller.

If I wanted to sell more right now , I would drop the price by about 2 or 3 grand and add a convertible model at the original price point.

If it's cheaper, normal people will consider it instead of just enthusiasts. If it's cheap AND a convertible, it can get some mid life crisis folks to buy it.

Casper > hethoughtofcars 02/20/2014 at 16:53

1

Not because they were bad, but because Toyota moved away from sports cars altogether. Now they are moving back. It makes sense to build from previous success.

Axial > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 17:08

0

But...bumping the engine power is the least expensive way to do it. No need for frame cutting and embiggening to shoe-horn more doors and seats in.

There are a bajillion 200 HP hatchbacks on the market and quite a few 200 HP sedans as well. Why try to conquer a market that has so much competition when there is a vocal demand for something that there presently is no answer to?

Korea Miéville > Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? 02/20/2014 at 17:48

0

Why are wagons so popular on Oppo? Seems perverse.

Decay buys too many beaters > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 02/20/2014 at 18:06

1

Well from what I can tell, every single turbo Subaru sees the wrong side of a Cobb accessport within the first year of ownership.

Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? > Korea Miéville 02/20/2014 at 18:07

0

Honestly, no idea. I don't really like them. There are some that look good (I do love Avant's) but not a lot of them. In my opinion.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 18:18

2

What to do with FT-86, you ask? Don't dilute it as a sedan or a wagon, or a CUV, or whatever. It is a sport coupe. Leave it as that, fix the under-power issues, add a folding hard top/targa top body style.

TARGA/SPIDER folding hard top 2-seater version.

EZ34R = 3.4 liter EZ-derived H6 with D-4S, and Valvematic, 320+ horsepower.

FA20DIT = 2.0 liter Turbo direct-injected engine from WRX, 268 horsepower.

6MT manual standard, automated-clutch or instant-shift robotic gearbox optional. No CVT, no torque-converter slush-box. DIRECT connection from the engine's crankshaft to the pavement when the clutch is engaged.

That kind of horsepower, still at or under 3000 lbs, would make it a class leader, instead of having to make excuses for 7+ second sprint to 60mph, and no appreciable torque.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Decay buys too many beaters 02/20/2014 at 18:20

0

Possibly, but it's a much bigger step buying an entire turbo setup vs mapping your already turbo'd engine.

If there are people saying 'I'll buy one if it had more power', I don't see why the response would be 'buy one with less power and we might make one with more'.

Doesn't seem to make sense.

Sir Halffast > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 02/20/2014 at 18:22

0

I still want a Targa/Vert. I'd even settle for less than the WRX's 268 HP, so long as it's just enough to offset the increased weight.

Decay buys too many beaters > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 02/20/2014 at 18:47

0

Yeah I guess that's true, but from a warranty perspective there is little difference in the eyes of the manufacturer.

But I still don't see it happening. More power would be good for Toyota, but Subaru has no way out without cannibalizing sales WRXs and STis. And from what I've seen, most who complain about the 86s power are past/future WRX owners who are used to torque from a Turbo at around 3000RPM. If driven HARD (as in never let the revs drop below about 4600) there is plenty of power in the N/A FA20 motor.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Decay buys too many beaters 02/20/2014 at 19:20

1

I suppose they might cannibalise a little on WRX/STi sales, but they would appeal to a hell of a lot of people looking to buy a more dedicated sports car but are put off by their power compared to, say, a V6 Mustang or 370Z. Even 250bhp would give it that little more credibility next to its faster rivals.

Also, a cannibalised sale is still a Subaru sale.

Wrong wheel drive, best wheel drive > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 02/20/2014 at 19:23

0

The problem here is that developing a Sedan is like developing a new car just borrowing parts from the original coupes... plus testing, plus safety, plus all the mod's as described in that article... it's easier to just refresh it using stuff that is already done and tested... like turbo boxers... Regionally it might not be doing "excellent"... but I'm pretty sure it did Ok compared to other cars out there.

MTY85 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/20/2014 at 23:01

0

What harm is there in keeping the Scion brand? The point of the brand was to attract younger buyers, and it did that.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MTY85 02/21/2014 at 00:22

0

It *did* that but it is not *doing* that. When your sales get cut in half in just a few years' time, even after recovering from a market crash, you're hurting. The fact that the FR-S introduction did little to increase sales, as did the introduction of the iQ, while Toyota sales remain strong, is evidence that the Scion brand is failing. It costs Toyota money to advertise that brand. It costs them money to keep up those trademarks and engineering and design teams. It costs them money to keep that brand alive. And for what? 70k sales of 5. DIFFERENT. MODELS. Oh and the average transaction price of a scion model is around 20k. Think about that for a second - Most models in toyota's lineup sold moer than the entire scion BRAND while having a similar transaction price. I understand that scion would never sell in the same numbers as toyota. But consider that they used to hit over 120 to 150k sales a year with three models. 50k sales a year is a good reason to keep a model around. And if you ignore the FR-S sales, it is possible that an individual model (I believe the xB) sold more units in the mid 2000s than the entire brand sold last year.

So let me throw the question back at you - what positives are there in keeping the scion brand? The FR-S is the GT 86 which is already a toyota. The enthusiasts already snapped up the scion version. What harm would there be in selling it in toyota dealers as the GT 86 like the rest of the world? The xB could be saved, and even the tC as these are cars toyota does not have in their showrooms. To make matters worse, they have already announced Scion will get no new models for some time while sales of the iQ nosedived after the first model year and the tC fell way short of the 35-45k sales a year estimate. Toyota isn't dumb, they put those estimates in place to make sure they are making money on the venture. So why keep the sinking ship going? Save the healthy, let the sick and dying go down with the ship.

Proof - it's working for GM.

MTY85 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/21/2014 at 00:52

0

What positives are there from keeping the Scion brand? The brand was created with the sole purpose of catching younger buyers. They did that. Scion buyers are younger than the average make. Why do you want to kick them to the curb and abandon those sales?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MTY85 02/21/2014 at 01:02

0

I'm sorry, what sales? If I was a competitor, I would LOVE toyota to keep scion around. It drains $ and resources like engineers and designers that could be working on other projects. 70k sales with 5 models is shameful for a volume automaker. I bet they aren't making a profit. I also bet they haven't made a profit since pre-recession. Maybe the FR-S works as the "halo" car for the brand (it is the most expensive by a few grand) but the car also works fine in the toyota dealerships elsewhere. Maybe not the *best* sales. But keeping an unprofitable dealer network afloat for a single, 20k a year at best model is a farce.